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	<title>Comments on: Troubled about Worship and Witness</title>
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	<description>thoughts along The Way</description>
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		<title>By: Reed</title>
		<link>http://reed.teammueller.com/2009/08/12/troubled-about-worship-and-witness/comment-page-1/#comment-461</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 03:15:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I see why you thought that would be abhorrent. I would find your initial understanding offensive, too. What I meant was just the opposite. That is, we are unkind if we hold such a gift just to ourselves, failing to invite anyone (unchurched believer, unchurched unbeliever, outsider, even an another-churched person, though I don&#039;t want to &#039;steal&#039; someone away from other relationships in another body) to experience the joy we find in our fellowship and corporate worship.

In my discussion there was an assumption that I didn&#039;t make clear and that assumption was that the folks who are doing the inviting have experienced a similar joy in fellowship and benefit from worship. Even so, we are often reticent to invite anyone to the party, especially unbelievers. Thus, I feel I/we need to be reminded not to hold on to the joy we find because of some (perceived or real) risk to us. It was clear in our discussion that day that the folks in the room had experienced a good thing by being in the church family and at worship, yet were reticent to invite others for some reason.

It&#039;s like a party. Is it programmatic and inauthentic to invite anyone and everyone to the party even though you set about on purpose to make invitations and follow-up to folks of differing relational distance from oneself? No way, if your intent is to share something wonderful. In like manner, we should invite everyone every chance we get, and do it well, but we/I don&#039;t. Because we/I don&#039;t I think we&#039;re missing the boat and need to think about it more intentionally. We can&#039;t keep this great gift of our fellowship and what our Lord does in our midst, to ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see why you thought that would be abhorrent. I would find your initial understanding offensive, too. What I meant was just the opposite. That is, we are unkind if we hold such a gift just to ourselves, failing to invite anyone (unchurched believer, unchurched unbeliever, outsider, even an another-churched person, though I don&#8217;t want to &#8217;steal&#8217; someone away from other relationships in another body) to experience the joy we find in our fellowship and corporate worship.</p>
<p>In my discussion there was an assumption that I didn&#8217;t make clear and that assumption was that the folks who are doing the inviting have experienced a similar joy in fellowship and benefit from worship. Even so, we are often reticent to invite anyone to the party, especially unbelievers. Thus, I feel I/we need to be reminded not to hold on to the joy we find because of some (perceived or real) risk to us. It was clear in our discussion that day that the folks in the room had experienced a good thing by being in the church family and at worship, yet were reticent to invite others for some reason.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s like a party. Is it programmatic and inauthentic to invite anyone and everyone to the party even though you set about on purpose to make invitations and follow-up to folks of differing relational distance from oneself? No way, if your intent is to share something wonderful. In like manner, we should invite everyone every chance we get, and do it well, but we/I don&#8217;t. Because we/I don&#8217;t I think we&#8217;re missing the boat and need to think about it more intentionally. We can&#8217;t keep this great gift of our fellowship and what our Lord does in our midst, to ourselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Thelander</title>
		<link>http://reed.teammueller.com/2009/08/12/troubled-about-worship-and-witness/comment-page-1/#comment-460</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Thelander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Aug 2009 01:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Abhorrent is a strong word, isn&#039;t it? Here&#039;s the phrase I read, and how I responded: &quot;We as a group of leaders seemed to flounder, even to the point of (apparent) division, over the issue of whether or not every one of us should invite the unchurched to our corporate worship gathering.&quot; 

My response: If the attitude of some of our leaders is that we should avoid or discourage each other inviting our unchurched friends and neighbors to our gatherings because they are unchurhced, well I find it not only abhorrent but pretty much out of line with the gospel.

If I read that wrong, and the actual context is: we should make a special effort -- a program if you will -- aimed SPECIFICALLY at inviting the unchurhced... well, I don&#039;t find that abhorrent. I just find it inauthentic. Which is almost as bad.

I wold say this: let us be genuine. If we get value from our worship and our fellowship, and if we have other friends (churched or unchurched, doesn&#039;t matter) let&#039;s invite them toi share what we experience. 

Let&#039;s NOT develop and champion programs that encourage invitation of one type of friend -- churched over unchurched and vice-versa) -- for the simple reason that it would be inauthentic of us to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Abhorrent is a strong word, isn&#8217;t it? Here&#8217;s the phrase I read, and how I responded: &#8220;We as a group of leaders seemed to flounder, even to the point of (apparent) division, over the issue of whether or not every one of us should invite the unchurched to our corporate worship gathering.&#8221; </p>
<p>My response: If the attitude of some of our leaders is that we should avoid or discourage each other inviting our unchurched friends and neighbors to our gatherings because they are unchurhced, well I find it not only abhorrent but pretty much out of line with the gospel.</p>
<p>If I read that wrong, and the actual context is: we should make a special effort &#8212; a program if you will &#8212; aimed SPECIFICALLY at inviting the unchurhced&#8230; well, I don&#8217;t find that abhorrent. I just find it inauthentic. Which is almost as bad.</p>
<p>I wold say this: let us be genuine. If we get value from our worship and our fellowship, and if we have other friends (churched or unchurched, doesn&#8217;t matter) let&#8217;s invite them toi share what we experience. </p>
<p>Let&#8217;s NOT develop and champion programs that encourage invitation of one type of friend &#8212; churched over unchurched and vice-versa) &#8212; for the simple reason that it would be inauthentic of us to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: Reed</title>
		<link>http://reed.teammueller.com/2009/08/12/troubled-about-worship-and-witness/comment-page-1/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>Reed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reed.teammueller.com/?p=226#comment-459</guid>
		<description>@Rod - it goes without saying (though I should have said it) that none of this is to the exclusion of living out lives as servants to our friends and neighbors (incarnation of the gospel) nor in the call to share the gospel verbally with them. In fact, I heard the spirit of the discussion last Friday as being the desire to do this. That is commendable. However, we mustn&#039;t miss the work of God in his church as a whole either or keep people from it. We all benefit from being part of our church family and I just want us to pass that on!

@Michael - Let me know what in my thoughts was abhorrent (I think that&#039;s what you meant, perhaps not). Maybe my language was unclear but I hope you know my intent. Being a worshipping and inviting church is a bridge of grace we can build for those who are without the knowledge of the hope we have in Christ, and a unique bridge at that. My hope was to help us realize what a gift we have been given in the grace we receive in a special way each weekend and how witholding that gift from others is misguided (because nobody at CR would intentionally withold such a gift from another). I can&#039;t imagine my life apart from you an yours and the whole of CR. This fact grounds my heart for others and (I believe) is grounded in Paul&#039;s application of the gospel in the Corinthian churh for the benefit of those without hope in Christ. I am so glad that once upon a time someone invited me, my life was changed because they did; I saw others receive God&#039;s word, and then I did myself as well. I believe Paul&#039;s intent was to rebuke the Corinthian church because they forgot to make the worship accessible to unbelievers and therefore were acting unkind by putting up (unbeknownst to them) barriers to faith.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rod &#8211; it goes without saying (though I should have said it) that none of this is to the exclusion of living out lives as servants to our friends and neighbors (incarnation of the gospel) nor in the call to share the gospel verbally with them. In fact, I heard the spirit of the discussion last Friday as being the desire to do this. That is commendable. However, we mustn&#8217;t miss the work of God in his church as a whole either or keep people from it. We all benefit from being part of our church family and I just want us to pass that on!</p>
<p>@Michael &#8211; Let me know what in my thoughts was abhorrent (I think that&#8217;s what you meant, perhaps not). Maybe my language was unclear but I hope you know my intent. Being a worshipping and inviting church is a bridge of grace we can build for those who are without the knowledge of the hope we have in Christ, and a unique bridge at that. My hope was to help us realize what a gift we have been given in the grace we receive in a special way each weekend and how witholding that gift from others is misguided (because nobody at CR would intentionally withold such a gift from another). I can&#8217;t imagine my life apart from you an yours and the whole of CR. This fact grounds my heart for others and (I believe) is grounded in Paul&#8217;s application of the gospel in the Corinthian churh for the benefit of those without hope in Christ. I am so glad that once upon a time someone invited me, my life was changed because they did; I saw others receive God&#8217;s word, and then I did myself as well. I believe Paul&#8217;s intent was to rebuke the Corinthian church because they forgot to make the worship accessible to unbelievers and therefore were acting unkind by putting up (unbeknownst to them) barriers to faith.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Thelander</title>
		<link>http://reed.teammueller.com/2009/08/12/troubled-about-worship-and-witness/comment-page-1/#comment-458</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Thelander</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://reed.teammueller.com/?p=226#comment-458</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m generally a guy of &quot;far too many&quot; words, so I&#039;ll keep this short:

I was not a &quot;believer&quot; the first time I attended worship at CRCC. I was not even a seeker or what Paul would call a &quot;God-fearer.&quot; I was just lost. If the attitude you sketch existed then, I&#039;m sure I wouldn&#039;t be writing this to you now.

Not only is  &quot;exclusive&quot; POV you&#039;ve outlined abhorrent to me personally, but it&#039;s in violent opposition to Jesus&#039; own words in  Matthew 9:13.

If I was inclined to invite my non-believing friends to worship before (even if I didn&#039;t do it much) I&#039;m less so now.

I&#039;m asahamed that a &quot;leader&quot; at CRCC would take that stance, and it saddens me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m generally a guy of &#8220;far too many&#8221; words, so I&#8217;ll keep this short:</p>
<p>I was not a &#8220;believer&#8221; the first time I attended worship at CRCC. I was not even a seeker or what Paul would call a &#8220;God-fearer.&#8221; I was just lost. If the attitude you sketch existed then, I&#8217;m sure I wouldn&#8217;t be writing this to you now.</p>
<p>Not only is  &#8220;exclusive&#8221; POV you&#8217;ve outlined abhorrent to me personally, but it&#8217;s in violent opposition to Jesus&#8217; own words in  Matthew 9:13.</p>
<p>If I was inclined to invite my non-believing friends to worship before (even if I didn&#8217;t do it much) I&#8217;m less so now.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m asahamed that a &#8220;leader&#8221; at CRCC would take that stance, and it saddens me.</p>
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